Math Disability Dyscalculia? What you need to know.

Please CLICK above to share. Parents and teachers, in this vlog I interview two math specialists about Dyscalculia, the “dyslexia of math”. If your child struggles with math, you’ll want to check this out to see if it resonates.

Today, two math nerds join me to talk about Dyscalculia looks like and why Math is so hard for your kiddo. You’ll hear from Adrianne Meldrum, a certified teacher who’s invested her time and money into learning multisensory math and Kara Scanlon who is an educational therapist and trained in Making Math Real. Together they’ve teamed up to make multisensory math more accessible by taking these specialized techniques all online so students and families can receive help regardless of where they work. To get a taste of the work they do, head over to their YouTube channel or visit their case study page to see the kind of work they do with students up to pre-calculus. April 5th, 2019 they’ll be hosting a webinar where they’ll deep dive into dyscalculia as well, you can register for a spot here: https://mathformiddles.com/courses/ The sign up is right at the top of the page.

ps- Here is their case study page: https://mathformiddles.com/case-study AND, we need you to develop your best self.

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Video transcript:

Hey, what’s up? It’s me, Seth Perler at SethPerler.com, and today we are going to talk about dyscalculia, which is a math disability. I’m so excited about this, we have with us today Adrianne Meldrum, who is somebody that I’ve known for a long time. She’s one of my favorite math nerds in the world as well as Kara Scanlon who I don’t know well but they are working together on some projects. They’ll be having a dyscalculia webinar coming up in April. Adrian and I have known each other for years, we’ve done a lot of work and support of each other’s missions and stuff like that. So I’m super stoked for this. This is for you parents and teachers if you are concerned about any kids who struggle with math, I want you to at least get it to listen to the beginning of this. After if you want to listen to the rest of this if dyscalculia might be something that that you want to take a look at. Seth: So let’s do a quick intro. Adrianne, tell everybody about you and what you do? Adrianne: Yeah hey, I’m Adrianne, I own Math for Middles, and I’ve been tutoring kids in math for a long time, since about 2006. And I was always frustrated because there’s always a certain percentage of my students that we would learn something, they would forget it, they’d come back, and it’s gone or they go to school couldn’t get it out on a test. Even though I knew they knew the material. I was really frustrated by that, I deep-d0ve into research and started learning about multi-sensory math, dyscalculia, dyslexia, and all of those types of issues, ADHD as well, and how they affect that. It’s totally involved in my teaching and now those are not issues for my students because I teach the way their brain is wired. So that’s a little bit about me. Kara: I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was five and I actually got diagnosed with ADHD about three years ago. It was always there but I didn’t need the extended time so it wasn’t a necessity for my parents to get that diagnosis and I was always playing sports hardcore, so that was my medicine at the time. So because of that, I have empathy for my students, I truly understand how difficult it is to learn. For me, it was spelling, reading, writing, but the math part wasn’t really an issue for me. So that’s where I can teach it, but I can be empathetic when a student doesn’t get it. Seth: So you work with kids on math nowadays? Kara: Yeah, I tap out at Calc 3. That’s when my brain doesn’t know how to make this not multi-sensory enough to engage, even though Calc 3 can be very multi-sensory. Seth: Cool, we’re going to talk about dyscalculia. Does the audience need to know what multi-sensory math is at this point? Adrienne: Yeah, I think that would be a good way to segway into it. Seth: Great, let me frame my question, what is multi-sensory math and why should a parent or teacher or even care that this concept exists? Adrienne: Yes, multi-sensory math is all about the sensory input that we’re putting in and we start with kinesthetic, touching things were manipulating objects for building things with our hands, models, in Legos are a plentiful resource for that at it’s most basic. Then we moved to representational. I think of just pictures drawings, you know, real simple drawings, they don’t have to be really detailed, and then we moved to the abstract. All of the instruction you experience Seth and that we experienced in school was all abstract, was all numbers. It’s a procedure, memorization. And that is how your kids are being taught right now in school, which is really likely, that’s how my students are being taught too, it’s going to be hard for them to master those math skills. And when we work with kids online, their first experience, and we jump right in with that multi-sensory, after about 10 minutes they say, “whoa, no one’s ever taught me that way before,” and it starts to make sense and they start changing that belief. It goes from ‘I’m not a math person,’ to ‘hey, I kind of like math,’ to ‘I’m a math person. I can do this work and it’s really exciting.’ And the progression they’re making is really fast, we just did an assessment with a student, he started out at like a third-grade level and in just nine months, he’s almost up to grade level. Seth: And how old was he? Adrienne: He is 14. So we’ve made a lot of progress. It’s exciting to his mom, she was telling me during the assessment that she was floored too because before he would fret and worry and spend all this time spinning his wheels that she was watching him. He’s just looking confident now even though all the problems were abstract like he would be at school. He was supported with that multi-sensory approach so he knows what to do and how it ties to the abstract. Kara: It’s a total mind shift too about his identity related to math. Seth: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s so important that because so often they have that limited belief that fixed the mindset, “I’m just not good at math, I’m just not a math person”. That’s really sad to see. So parents and teachers are watching, when I’m dealing with kids with math who struggled a lot, what I talked a lot about is what I call Bucket Theory. So you have this bucket, we’re trying to fill this bucket with math information, but these kids have holes in the bucket. So as we’re trying to teach them in math, it’s very sequential and gets harder and harder as the school year goes by, as years go by so they have all these holes and as they get into more complex math that they would normally be able to do if the holes were filled, it appears that they are not capable. Would that be a good metaphor? Adrienne: Absolutely, perfect metaphor. Kara: I was going to say, that’s what I see everyday. Adrienne: And yeah, that student we were describing, we were just looking at his graph last night, and exactly. We’re seeing holes filled, he’s maxed out on so many things that matter on the foundational and that I’m just so excited about his progress. Seth: Cool, so before we define dyscalculia, I want to just get people who’re watching really engaged and let them make sure if they’re in the right place. So what I’m going to ask you before a formal definition is I’m going to ask you what do parents and teachers who’re working with the kid with dyscalculia hear them say. So what would a parent say if their kid, they should be concerned what words are they? What are they saying to you? And in your mind, you’re going, ‘Oh, yeah, they’re kid has dyscalculia.’ What do they say? Kara: Even before what they say, it can be just hardcore avoidance behavior. They’ll say, ‘No, no, no, I just want to play basketball a little bit longer,’ or ‘No, no, no, I’ll finish my English homework first.’ Seth: So they’re avoiding math. Rejection of math. Adrienne: Yes, yes, absolutely. And I would say they’re frustrated because the kid can’t seem to remember math facts, and they’re like, gosh they’re eighth-graders and they can’t even do you know 8×7 or something like that? And I’m frustrated because we spend all this time practicing and it doesn’t even matter doesn’t, it doesn’t stick, so they’re frustrated. And then they also talk about, it’s like going on 50 First Dates, you know the movie where she keeps forgetting every day that she gets up. It’s like that. I put it into my kid. We got it. We got it. And they wake up, and it’s gone. We are kind of like ‘uh huh, yeah, we’ve heard things like that before.’ Seth: So they’re working with the kid, they know their kid gets the concept. They’ve done several problems, I see this when I practice with some of my kids, and they get to school the next day, they have their test, it looks like they’ve even mastered it, they really get it. And the next day, it’s gone, it’s vanished. It’s just a hole in the bucket so big like there’s no bottom in it, even or something. It’s just gone. Kara: I have a college student, he’s taken algebra three times, pre calc four times, he’s on calc 1 for the third time and he’s finally like, ‘I’m actually, like, I’m not going to study for 50 hours for this calc final. It feels really weird, but I actually know how to study efficiently and I understand the concepts are ready. So I don’t need to hunker down and do this crazy stuff because I actually already know it. It wasn’t teaching him everything from the ground up. It was just there a certain holes and he needed logical steps, that’s all he needed was just He said, ‘Oh, that’s why you go from there to there.’ The teacher doesn’t always explain that. Adrienne: Yeah. Yeah, I think another thing to that parents might not be aware that is happening, but I’m wearing a shirt that has five tally marks on it, there’s a phrase that we use a lot to describe does the kid understand the fiveness of 5. I’ve seriously had 9th graders before where they saw a dice pattern of 5 and she did not know that was 5. She had to count one by one that’s a huge red flag. And so even though she kept getting passed on, passed on, here she is in algebra, she can’t read the calendar, she’s counting on her fingers, it is hard. And so that’s what dyscalculia looks like. It’s they can’t do the basics even, but somehow they just keep getting passed on so parents are really frustrated by that because the school doesn’t know what to do. They just shove a calculator to them. She can do the calculator, but she had no idea what the number meant, but she had no idea what the number meant coming out on the other side. Seth: So is there a definition and if one of you would start with your definition and then the other of you can fill in the blanks if you would add anything, but is there a definition that would be useful to share right now? Adrienne: [Kara,] do you want to tackle that? She is my walking encyclopedia of learning, it’s amazing. Kara: For me, it just means that there’s no inherent meaning in the symbol. I take that definition from being dyslexic and I don’t have inherent meaning in letters. It just doesn’t mean anything to me people, will show me something and if I’m not like focused and want to read it, literally it’s just jumble on a screen. Seth: So your brain is not seeing a symbol of numbers, but are you talking about symbols like the division sign and the multiplication sign, any math symbol? Kara: When you say division sign, for most people, it’s probably like, ‘Ok, well we have a quantity and it’s going to separate it into different things, that’s why we divide. Well, for someone with dyscalculia, there’s no inherent meaning to that so they haven’t physically seen what’s going on or like tangibly done that, it’s just a little line with two dots. It could be a percentage sign, it could be a division sign it, it could just be someone doodling. You know, there’s just no inherent meaning behind it. Seth: Interesting, okay. Kara: This can be really frustrating for a teacher because for other people you can just say, ‘This is division, you do this, you divide it into these many groups, and you’re done.’ But for this kiddo, it’s like ‘What? I don’t get it.’ Adrienne: Yeah, absolutely, and I had students before where they have to specifically ask, ‘Is that a 6, or is that a 9?’ because in their mind, it’s not holding still and so it’s frustrating, or the division sign, plus sign and multiply sign all look alike because the dots are close enough that it could be a plus. So then they’re like, ‘I’m not really sure what I’m seeing here.’ I think a really good analogy for that is in reading when I’m reading, I’m sure you guys can relate to this, I see the word pencil and I can envision a pencil. Tyrannosaurus Rex, that’s the dinosaur with the little arms. But if I say the word ‘the,’ is there an image that comes to the mind? No. So it’s kind of similar on the math side. They see a quantity, but they have no image for what that is. And so that’s where the multi-sensory comes in, we’re building images that make more sense. Seth: And so that helps them build brain connections so that it makes more sense. Okay. Now, let’s move on a little bit to teachers. We have teachers watching. Say you have a teacher and they’re in the classroom, they’re trying to teach these kids, they’ve maybe never even heard of it or they don’t know much about it, and they’ve been trying these approaches that they’ve been taught in terms of how to work with kids and they’re not seeing the progress. So often one of the things that I talked about so much is the shame and I’m not saying that you know, I’d like to think all the teachers that watch don’t unintentionally shame kids, but sometimes unintentionally we’re actually doing this. Kids are our internalizing, ‘I’m bad at math. I just can’t do math,’ whatever but how does a teacher know if they haven’t been trained in this? How does a teacher know the red flags? And then what types of things do teachers who do know about it, what do they do differently from teachers who don’t so that teachers who want to learn how to serve these kids can have a couple tips for how to approach this. Did that question make sense? Adrienne: It’s a lot to tackle. Seth: You have a teacher in class, how do they identify them, and how can they improve them. Adrienne: Yeah. Absolutely. So I think some of the easiest ways to identify them is when you see a disconnect between the intellect of that student like they enjoy them they provide lots of interesting context to you know, they’re usually really good at conversation. Wouldn’t you agree our students are amazing at that right? But then you’re like there’s such a disconnect. They don’t seem to be able to communicate mathematically, and I don’t really get what’s going on. You can’t see it. These are the kids who’re habitually getting D’s and F’s on all assessments, and even though they’re doing their homework, they’re trying. So there’s something off there and that should be a red flag in my opinion. Often I think teachers feel like, ‘This kid is lazy, they’re blah blah blah.’ Seth: Maybe they’re thinking that they’re not putting in the effort. Adrienne: Exactly, but the truth is they’re putting in the effort. They’re working three times harder than the regular student to understand but it’s not working because you’re presenting it with just equations on the board. There’s a big disconnect. So what’s the easiest thing you could do? Go back into the earlier grades, look for the connections to the skill you feel that you need. So I’m going to use factoring as an example. Factoring is based on area multiplication when you’re a little kid, so go back draw on the board, if we’re doing 3 x 13, show them that you can break 13 into a 10 + 3, and then we’re going to multiply and talk to them about factoring is finding with the side lengths are of this area and build that bridge for them because they might not understand about what’s happening here. And so that’s one easy way to go back. Look what the time curriculum from the lower grades, build it up to where they are right now. And lots of pictures, if you can do a manipulative list, please do. But I realize like in high school you’re strapped for time. So a drawing is better than nothing in my opinion. What would you add to things that they can do? Kara: I love the going back, and notice how Adrienne immediately made it physical. So that’s the other thing, have toys in your classroom. I mean I was teaching a pre-calc class and we were doing maximization. So for example, you have a pizza box, and you have to maximize how much cardboard and volume, and that’s why I told the kids, ‘so when you open a pizza box, what do you see? What are the different parts that make up a pizza box.’ One of my students hadn’t seen a pizza box so I got one for that physical representation that had meaning and he could touch it and play with it. That’s great for geometry, there so many applications later and tell that if you understand how those pieces fit together is going to make calculus easier. For me, it might seem like a time suck, but it’s going to be engaging. You’re going to get the whole class engaged. Who doesn’t want to play with a pizza box? Especially if there’s pizza in it, little things like that. Maybe some of those kids didn’t need it that in-depth, but they’re still going to have fun, even if they’re not needing that you know, how can I bring up the content level? Adrienne: Absolutely, even the kids who are really advanced, I find that they struggle with understanding where it came from. They’re good at memorization and procedure. So even if you spend the time to go back to the concrete of how this works, they’re going to learn a lot as well and deepen their own understanding of math. Seth: Okay, we’re going to wrap this up in like 2 minutes. So we discuss some things teachers can do and I guess, I want to make real clear for my audience that you know, your kids in the class, doesn’t matter if they’re in 4th grade or 12th grade or what, they can have dyscalculia. So whatever percentage there is, and 3rd grade you’re going to have the same percentages as older kids. Often times, the older kids will not be identified and they will be way further down the line in terms if they have compensated so much, work way longer than they need to be, whatever. But you have a parent, they’re listening. They’re like, ‘oh this is kind of bad.’ What can they do? Should they go get a tutor? Should they go get any old tutor? Should they go get a tutoring program or a private tutor? So they check out your thing on April 4th, you’re having the webinar on it, should they research it, should they not take more math class, should they push their get into an easier class. What kind of thoughts should parents be having? Adrienne: Yes, so I would say one thing I’m going to caution you against is that any old tutoring isn’t going to work. You know, the big box tutoring people out there, franchises or whatever are just a waste of money because it’s more of the same. It’s exactly what they’re experiencing at school, and obviously, that’s the definition of insanity right. We’re doing more of the same but expecting different results. It’s not going to work. Seth: A lot of what I talk about is cookie-cutter interventions that don’t work. Adrienne: Right, so you’re going to want to look for a tutor/therapist that has background in this. Kara’s an educational therapist, she has training in making math real. I have training in multi-sensor math through Marilyn Zecher. The methods are similar, but there’s a little bit of differences but overall we both get results for our kids. Seth: So call the tutor on the phone and say, ‘do you understand dyscalculia and where are you coming from exactly?” Kara: Right, and ‘why do you teach differently,’ because someone can say, ‘yeah, I’ve worked with a kid with dyscalculia,’ but do they understand it. Because that’s going to tell you a lot because they might be doing the same thing they’re doing in school. Seth: Don’t just take it at face value. Adrienne: Be a little skeptical about it, look for that. Another method you could look around for someone that has bood in math. That’s another phrase for a guy who’s doing multi-sensory, but you don’t even have to choose to work with us, but if you want some help pointed in the right direction, make sure you come to our webinar, we would love to help you. Send us an email. We know people, we’re connected we can help you figure that out. So definitely don’t settle for just more of the same, that is our biggest advice there. Seth: And then what advice do you have for them? And that this is something we could spend a whole session I’m sure when they are trying. When they’re trying to advocate with the school and I hear this a lot that the school doesn’t get it. They may make some lip service but nothing is changing. So what should they say to the school? We can do a whole another one of them. Adrienne: Yeah we really could! You know, try to really work with the school. There’s been a few crazy situations Kara and I’ve been able to work out, because we are who we are. Sometimes we’re able to work it out. Kara’s working with someone right now where she is the lead teacher. She’s teaching this student Algebra 2. I’ve done that before as well where I’ve been teaching this 7th grader all the seventh-grade math, and the school was on board. They wanted to help, they realize that they lack the resources, right? So it’s difficult to get there but it’s worth the effort. It takes a lot of back and forth. But you can advocate for that. You can ask for a period where they go online to meet with us or maybe send a teacher through some training or something like that and get the kids the help they need. You’d be surprised schools, are more willing than you think. You just have to go in there with an open mind and not being threatened or highly emotional. Seth: Yeah, and hopefully they’ll be receptive and hopefully they can go in there armed with the knowledge. Hopefully from this right now or your webinar from the research on it. So we have to wrap up today any final. Adrienne: No, I just hope you can come join us. We just skimmed the surface. There’s so much more we can share. So come to our webinar in April, I’ll make sure Seth has the right link. We’ll go a little deeper for you and really help you get a vision of what’s really needed to turn the ship around. Seth: All right, thank you guys so much. This is Kara Scanlon and Adrian Meldrum and you find both of them online, again my name is Seth Perler, I’m an executive function coach out of Boulder, CO, and we will see you soon. Thank you guys so much. Please CLICK below to share.